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  1. Pointness keep funding N-Judah – Ridesr are not sacrificed regardless of improve made specifically for N Judah.

    Put money and improves on others train like J-Church, More on L-Taraval, K-Ingleside and M-Ocean View.

  2. The reason the K and T lines were fused in the first place is that when the T line began service the turnback at Embarcadero couldn’t handle the volume, and severe congestion resulted. I don’t see what’s changed since then. The problem will remain until the T starts running on the Central Subway tracks instead of the Market Street Subway.

    • The Embarcadero turnaround was also an issue when the extension to Caltrain opened as trains used the Embarcadero station to turn back. Who designed this crap? Oh, probably the same idiots who wanted to run the T under 3rd (IB) and 4th (OB) and then dog leg around Geary and Stockton with no connection to the Market St. subway.
      Once the CS opens, the question is whether the K will turn back at Embarcadero or continue along to 4th/King. Otherwise, expect reduced service along the Embarcadero surface line as only the N will run to Caltrain. Of course, Muni’s response would be to ask riders to transfer at Powell/Union Square…because so many people will want to walk a few blocks in a passageway to then descend 10 stories to wait for a 1-car T train to take them to Caltrain. Then again, this would be a moot point if Caltrain actually connected to the TTC…

      • I think T trains will be 2-car once the Central Subway opens. The J and K lines don’t really need 2-car capacity except in the subway. 1-car trains in the subway are horrible for efficiency.

        • Central Subway is capable of only handling two car sets. However, that doesn’t mean that Muni will operate 2-car trains. Remember, we are dealing with Muni.

      • You’re both right!

        When the T line opened it turned around at Castro, which creates something like a 30 second time when it blocked both tunnels crossing over and around 60 second minimum turn around time at Castro.

        The K was still operating as separate line, meaning 4 lines turned back at Embarcadero and 2 continued. And which lines turns back s also a factor because they also swapped where the J and the N turned back and discovered it took longer than expected to board a one-car J than a two-car N. (the new CEO at time inherited a real clustersmurf of an agency which was not prepared to operate a sixth line)

        Both Castro and Embarcadero were bottlenecks and fusing the lines solved the turn-back delays at both stations. The T is an extension of the K, so it took down the number of lines in the tunnel.

        Once the Central Subway opens, the default plan was to go back to the N-Judah, but that was really just a placeholder when the Central Subway was being planned and engineered.

        What’s changed in the meantime is ridership growth on the system, there’s been a lot of development along the waterfront and Caltrain ridership is up. Another question they need to answer is if going back to the N-Judah alone will provide frequent enough service along the Embarcadero?

        • The T trains are packed in the rush hour now, because people are going past 4th and King to jobs near UCSF. This morning at 7:30 a.m., there were no N trains in sight (prediction was 18 minutes when I got off at Powell to wait for either an N or a T) and the single car T was like Tokyo.

        • I never trust those predictions.

          I leave Mission Bay early enough to avoid the evening rush, but it sounds like two-car T-line trains are next up after a three-car N-Judah.

          The first full group of 24 trains are intended for expansion, including enough for full-time two-car T-line service at Central Subway startup. The idea is to grow the fleet from 151 to 175 before they start retiring the existing trains, I don’t see the entire existing fleet lasting that long, but a lot more trains regardless.

        • After the Central Subway opens, Muni should continue to run K trains to the 3rd/23rd St. turnaround which will provide service along the Embarcadero as well as UCSF/Warriors arena. The T should run from Chinatown to the end of the line in 2-car sets. If it turns out that there isn’t demand for 2-car sets from the turnaround to Vis Valley then switch it up…1-car K trains along the entire route and 2-car T trains from the turnaround to Chinatown.

        • So… that’s a third big pinch-point, which combining the K/T didn’t help with. Whenever K/T trains turn from King to/from Fourth, it adds an extra phase to the signal lights which creates traffic congestion and delays rounding the intersection for both lines.

          The plan is for the E and N lines to cross the T perpendicular. That way lines can cross the intersection without forward moving traffic. The turn will still be used for getting trains in and out of the yard and running shuttle to Mission Bay trains during events at the Warriors Arena (the development approval requires they pay for traffic control to manage the intersection and pay for extra Muni service) using the same loop as Mission Bay Central Subway shuttles.

          The turn just south of 23rd is already in use pulling trains in and out of Metro East rail yard. There is a full loop if you trains run through the yard, it’s already in use moving trains around for maintenance and opens up the risk that a broken down train could stop K service.

          It’s nice to have more options, but simplicity helps operations. Let the Central Subway get off the ground, see how the Warriors shuttles go before taking it another step.

  3. Moving more people with an additional car is one thing. Moving people faster, in general, is another. As long as the surface routes stop every couple blocks and share the streets with traffic it will remain slow. A traffic light was recently installed at 18th/Judah which was supposed to help speed up the N line. Wrong. When I’ve been on it, trains now sit at the light at 18th and then again at 19th. No signal priority for the train operator. It adds another minute to my commute. It may not sound like much, considering a commute from the Sunset to downtown takes 35+ minutes, but the most heavily used light rail line in the city shouldn’t take this long. At the very least the N line should be underground from downtown to 19th Ave with stations every half mile (Duboce, Cole Valley, UCSF, 9th/Judah, 19th Ave.). There is plenty of complementary bus service nearby for local connections. Let’s move, folks.